01/26/09 141 W, 3 I - + 11 - 11 This Evening's MVA / Interstate 40

Motor-vehicle accident involving five vehicles, subject(s) pinned, truck fire, and woods fire. Reported about 6:40 p.m. Two patients in a passenger vehicle on westbound Interstate 40 at Wade Avenue. Third patient pulled by bystanders from the burning cab of overturned transfer truck on eastbound side. Truck driver transported to UNC Burn Center. Burning fuel spilled from cab and ignited woods fire. Truck was carrying garbage. Westbound lanes entirely closed. Fire units included Western Wake E191, E196, R295, Tanker 198, B299, C190 (with 100 as IC), Cary E1, E2, R2, L1 (riding T6), B2, Swift Creek E3, Morrisville E1. Water shuttled utilized. Medical units included EMS 4, 51, 52, 54, M94, D2, MD 20. Who else was there? The night was dark, the sky was red, and this photographer took 858 pictures. Lots of blur, lots rejects. Maybe 160 or fewer keepers. Preliminary photos posted

FYI: Cary Ladder 1 is riding Truck 6 while Ladder 1 is in the shop. Truck 6 original crew is riding a reserve truck company.
C.Parker - 01/26/09 - 23:42

Cary’s Battalion Chief was BC-2. Also add Western Wake Brush 299. Car 190 (Western Wake 100) was IC, as there is no C1 for Western Wake. And the above poster is correct that it was Cary L-1 on the call riding T-6, which does carry a Holmatro combi-tool. EMS 51 was also on scene.

All that and a slightly eerie resemblance to a similar type crash just down the road in the summer of ’07…
CFP 7021 (Email) - 01/27/09 - 02:10

Swift Creek? No offense, but RFD 14 or 8 isn’t closer?
Silver - 01/27/09 - 03:52

Thanks for updates, updated.
Legeros - 01/27/09 - 07:40

News coverage:

N&O: http://www.newsobserver.com/news/crime_s..
WRAL: http://www.wral.com/traffic/story/440463..
NBC17: http://wake.mync.com/site/Wake/news/stor..
Legeros - 01/27/09 - 07:53

Jeff, my guess would be that Swift Creek has pumper/tanker capabilities and RFD does not….just a guess…
H2O - 01/27/09 - 08:23

Is mutual aid based on traffic density possible/feasible in a situation such as this? e.g., requesting/sending resources that are closer to those roads less congested? “Send me two engines that are closest to Wade Avenue.” Or maybe “...closest to Wade Avenue or Harrison Avenue.” This presumes a holistic perspective is available of an incident on a major road, with IC or dispatch or someone aware of which arteries are open versus closed.
Legeros - 01/27/09 - 08:45

Mike, I know that I have requested units that may seem further away, but in fact can respond faster simply because of traffic conditions. Rather than “send me two units close to Wade Ave” I would request specific units and be able to give them specific directions on how to get to a scene. It is also nice when SHP, RPD, etc is close by to advise on road closing or possibly ensuring that one lane of travel is open to other responding units. It once again touches on that idea of everyone playing nicely together no matter what badge you wear.
H2O - 01/27/09 - 08:51

Jeff, Sure 14 or 8 is closer, but both together bring the same amount of water that SCE3 brings. At that point the need was water. Granted something might have been mistaken somewhere along the lines and maybe there should have been tankers requested/dispatched. At that point as I understand it was a need for water, not necessarily manpower. Also for those interested, it took SCE3 13 minutes from bang out to on scene, MFE1 was 12.

Here in lies a bigger issue of “closest station/unit” response. Cary E-1 was on the auto aid card for this call, L-1, R-4 (switched to R-2) added themselves to the call. A 1/2 mile down the road you get a Raleigh unit, 1 mile farther it’s an entire Raleigh response. The issues are above the department level and fall to the management of the County Fire/Rescue services to work out with the cities who goes where. Trust me there are departments who have been down this road, and this call is a glaring example, how Raleigh isn’t in the run order for county calls in this area, just as county units aren’t in the run order for a structure fire 1/2 block away from their stations.

Until the upper echelon of ALL agencies involved in the decision making process get together and truly go to a closest unit (which we all know requires standard qualifications of personnel, equipment, training and operating directives) then we’ll continue to have these same issues day in and day out.
CFP 7021 (Email) - 01/27/09 - 10:59

Well said Shev
Kermit - 01/27/09 - 12:36

Oversight on my part about the water capabilities of “The Creek” vs city units. Thanks for straightening me out Shev….
Silver - 01/27/09 - 14:36

The water capabilities of county units is something that many outlaying Raleigh units should recognize and use to their advantage. Many do this but there is always more room for further cooperation.
CountyFire - 01/27/09 - 16:18

You know what…this incident was handled very well by county/Cary units. Officials with Raleigh have said that what’s in the city is theirs. They don’t mind if other departments join in but they don’t NEED help. Well then the county doesn’t need their help either. This was a county call and Raleigh should stay out. Cary always calls the county for coverage and manpower and auto-aid. Similarly, the county calls Cary. It’s a two way street and as far as I’m concerned the road in and out of Raleigh is closed.
RPW - 01/27/09 - 21:04

Ohhhhh lorrrrrdddd, here we go with another anonymous city basher. Different mindsets friend; we at Ladder 4 have already discussed the fact that on a “pin”, if Bayleaf or Durham Highway is closer for a heavy rescue asset, they WILL get called. The end result might be two rescues on the scene, but who cares? Handle one call at a time, try to make a difference, then get in service.

It’s not about us and you, it’s about getting ADEQUATE resources on the scene in a timely manner to help others. Stop your crying and focus on why you’re here. I’ll agree, some folks just overlook the county resources available to them. However, RFD 24, Durham Highway and Bethesda is a prime example of multi-agency cooperation. If the county would ever come up with mandatory staffing requirements, to guarantee an adequate number of TRAINED personnel on companies, you might see it change. Until then, it’ll be a mixed basket across the city as to who might call and who might not. Put yourself in the position of a battalion chief (though you might not be able to by your ridiculously immature post); if you called a county asset for help, wouldn’t you like to know that you were getting a rig with decent staffing, with TRAINED personnel? Not, maybe, a driver and 2 people that are fresh off probation just to fill seats and get the truck out? I was a vollie for 12 years, I know it happens.

Stay Safe….
Silver - 01/28/09 - 01:43

To help set some of the record straight, Swift Creek responded to the incident on I-40 because our pagers activated (only VHF and rip-n-run and no locution or alpha) and it was verified through RWECC that we were needed to respond an engine company to the scene. So we got on the E3 and responded to the scene. We did not experience any traffic issues until we were within mile of the incident. E3 has a 1000gal tank and we responded with a driver, officer and one FF. We also had another Chief Officer respond POV. We arrived and started fire suppression on the far west end of the incident (Div B). We got what we could and then extended our line by 150ft. Then, we worked with the crew from Morrisville E1 until we when to rehab. While we were working with MFD E1s crew SC E3, the apparatus, was put into the water shuttle. The fire was extinguished and Swift Creek was released by command.

Were we the closest unit? Probably not. Exactly how Swift Creek got the call I do not know. I had heard the initial call for Western Wake but I was doing something else and did not listen to it. We were dispatched to it and responded to the call, as to the why it was us over someone else; well I guess someone else will have to answer that.
Griggs (Email) - 01/28/09 - 16:39

To expand on Silver’s comments, there’s another issue that RPW seems to be missing. In Cary, a structure fire dispatch takes almost 50% of the engine companies out of service. In Raleigh the same dispatch takes only about 10% out of service. It’s not that the help is not wanted, it’s just not needed (no disrespect to the Cary brothers, just the facts).
I do agree that we(Raleigh) sometimes fail to use some available resources. I think that comes from a company officer that is not familier with what the county units have to offer.
firedriver - 01/29/09 - 13:53

It’s more like 28% for Cary on a structure fire dispatch, you only get 2 engines, but I understand your point. You also have to remember that there is an auto-aid engine dispatched on ALL reported structure fires in Cary. And they are responding into the county with Holly Springs, Fairview, Swift Creek, Western Wake, Morrisville and Apex on a regular basis using closest station dispatching.

What I think the point that is trying to be made is not whether or not the help is needed but where it’s coming from and how quick you can put boots on the street. Sure you can have an engine coming from 10 miles away and get a city engine, or 2 miles away and get a county engine. There are some parts of town that can get drained quick, if companies are out of service on the west side, why not have Western Wake or Swift Creek coming to help, especially in some of the areas that those engines can beat the city to start with. As has been said it’s a high level decision a the county level that has to be made. And I’m talking about more than just working out a response agreement, I’m also talking about the county taking responsibility for consistent (and adequate) staffing, training, and operational directives. They’ve started, and with the current economy that’s better than nothing. But until the standard of coverage is the same across the board for EVERY department in this county closest station cannot and will not work.
CFP 7021 (Email) - 01/29/09 - 15:39

I think a lot of people take offense to some peoples understanding of what is coming on some departments responding units. Morrisville, Apex and Holly Springs are all municipal fire departments that cover some county land. These departments have trained and certified individuals on board. Bigger departments only use outside agencies when it is required by their ISO rating. When departments stop thinking they are better then others, that is when closest station response will work.
Joe (Email) - 01/29/09 - 16:58

Great job by all who were on scene. Command and cooperation sounded excellent. RFD Station #8 was monitoring on MA1 and MA2, and we were ready to respond if requested by the IC. However, we did not have much to offer for water quantity, but as many of you know, Class A foam and a 500 gal supply applied at lower gpm will go a long way for extinguishment. As we listened, it appeared that personnel was in demand more than water. Stay safe out there !!
A.Rich - 01/29/09 - 18:18

When adequate funding is provided and the Fire Comission follows the guidelines/goals that they established, then adequate staffing can be guaranted.
wc - 01/29/09 - 18:25

Joe, your last statement is ridiculous….just sayin’.....
Silver - 01/30/09 - 02:16

Hey, I might be able to offer some assistance. If you like, I would be glad to help any of you understand the Fire Commission and it’s priorities off line. They like “us” are not perfect, but there are methodologies in place that are being followed. You can give me a call if you like. It may somewhat relieve your frustrations because many of posts are unfounded in the absence of facts (yet entertaining). Also, the whole city vs. county thing is old. Just offering my assistance. Enjoy your life, family, friends, and profession(s). Just Be Happy !!! A.C. Rich – Stony Hill Fire, RFD E8A
A.Rich - 01/30/09 - 08:39

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