03/11/11 89 W, 1 I - + 10 - 4 Eastern Wake Chimney Fire

FireNews has posted some pictures from John Franks of a chimney fire on Meadow Run from a few Fridays ago. Appearing in the series of pictures are Eastern Wake, Wendell, and Wake-New Hope firefighters. Eastern Wake Pumper 2 was first on scene, notes the description. They found a working fire with heavy black smoke showing. Before suppression started, the fire ventilated itself through the first-story roof. Read and see more on FireNews. Then see the entire collection on this Flickr page.

John Franks/FireNews photo

For our Sunday afternoon discussion I’ll go ahead and ask; am I the only one that went to the Flickr page above and looked at the other pics of this incident? Interesting to say the least…
Silver - 03/20/11 - 17:58

Whoa….time to regroup. Yeah, yeah, we know the vollie motto; fire went out, we went home.
RescueRanger - 03/20/11 - 20:15

So how bad did he push the fire in the house?
Rookie - 03/21/11 - 07:21

Looks like there is a line inside the house too, so I guess there was interior work too.
Look closer - 03/21/11 - 10:50

Does that make it even worse??
Rookie - 03/21/11 - 15:25

Nope. Just means that they were working on the fire and not “screwing up” like others here are suggesting!
Look closer - 03/21/11 - 17:51

I can assure you that this fire, like every fire was talked about and the issues have been resolved. As far as discussions, we handle our stuff internally..Anytime you want to discuss an issue, please feel free to stop by 4828 Clifton Rd. to voice your concerns.
EWFD - Capt. - 03/21/11 - 20:28

I was taught not to “push” the fire into a building from an exterior hoseline when there is a crew on the inside. Good way to get your comrades burned, or worse. Not being critical, just sayin for safety sakes and to other rookies out there.
JH - 03/21/11 - 20:30

After speaking to someone close to the incident (who wasn’t thrilled), I went back and looked at the pics. As usual, it’s all anonymous so allow me to be the easy target so you can point your anger (or whatever else) this way. @EWFD-Cap’....Keep in mind, this is how we ALL get better at our jobs by reviewing incidents and asking “what could I have done different/better”.

Since the jab was thrown out, I’ll put my .02 in; 1) The fire is venting, so let it vent. Use it to your advantage and put two lines inside, stopping it from advancing any further (the picture progression shows the amount of spread later on in the incident), getting to the actual seat of the fire. A good 360 would tell you that you have extension via the lower attic/void and it’s not wasting any time. With this much fire and only one line inside is asking for trouble. The second line should have been directed to the interior to either back-up the first, or work together with the first at taking a stand.

2) Members should be interior, with hooks, aggressively “opening up”. The ceilings and walls should be dropped and opened, and there’s no time to waste if you want to make a stop. You’re going to get covered in sheetrock and insulation, but the reward is exposing all hidden pockets of fire and knocking it out.

Let me ask you “Look closer”, if you have this much fire and the one line inside fails, now you end up with members burned. I guess that’s okay in your book though ‘cuz the boyz’ were fightin’ fire. Sure, eventually a third line would probably have to be deployed in the area outside to take care of any hot embers from the chimney housing during mop-up, but just letting one line in initially?

Sorry “Look Closer”, but if you think this is good line placement, I suggest you open a book or take another class; http://www.flickr.com/photos/jwmfranks/5..

Stay safe, but be aggressive guys….
Silver (Email) - 03/21/11 - 20:54

Silver, no question a good combo of engine and truck work would have stopped this fire right where you see it in the above picture. But you have to train and learn from past experiences to get good at a simple job such as this one. I went by there after the fire and there is no question that they pushed the fire back on the unburned portion. The guys on this job have been doing it for a long time. The problem is every fire they have ends this way- with more damage than before they arrived. Their admin does not let them learn from their mistakes, I know because I used to work there. Innovation and suggested action for improvement is punished, and no matter how many books the read or videos they watch this is going to continue because they still take command from 3 miles away and still shoot their load before thinking about what theyre doing. For the citizens they serve and the guys that work there I hope and pray that they make it through this administration without burning someone elses sh*t to the ground or killing another fireman. No matter how long you’ve been doing this there is a time and place to recognize that technology and tactics have emerged and if you dont embrace them it will bring you and everyone around you down. For the only department in the county that still calls a fire “condition blue” or “conditon red”, its obvious that they intentionally chose to be defiant or ignorant to the way things are done now. Get with the program, Step up or step down. Be carefull EWFD Firemen, know your job and do whats RIGHT versus what and uneducated micromanager tells you. 30+ years of experience with no change in how you do things is nothing more than 1 year of bad experience repeated itself 29 times. I pray you go home at the end of your shift, and everyone else for that matter!
seen it before - 03/21/11 - 21:30

Oh well. BTW, I did not say it was good line placement Silver. I said they had a second line inside the house.
Look closer - 03/22/11 - 23:13

Okey doke….sequence of pics looks like first line went in, second line outside, then a third line pulled by Wendell(?) to the interior.

Stay safe…
Silver - 03/22/11 - 23:58

Well said “ seen it before”. Everything you said is true except about them being the only department in the county that says “condition blue” or “condition red”. I’m not naming names but they are the ones caught up in how much they make and hand us the line at the front door when we go m/a. Silver you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. I wish it was the other way around. You are absolutely correct about opening up from inside to get to the fire. Aggresiveness pays off in the end for the homeowner, patient, property, and yourself.
911 - 03/23/11 - 19:06

We know the paid guy saying, “Pays the same”.
RR Hater - 03/24/11 - 09:08

To all you Monday morning Quarterbacks,everyone has a plan till they get hit in the mouth.And to Silver it’s easy follwing decisions then it is to make them.
Badger - 03/24/11 - 14:03

This has been an interesting peer-to-peer discussion to watch. Hasn’t turned terminally toxic, so kudos for that. And thank goodness our newest anonymous reader opted for Badger versus say Beaver. We might have never recovered then!
Legeros - 03/24/11 - 18:01

It’s not quarterbacking it’s common sense and they way firemen should do it. Everyone jumps on Silver even I have but he has a good knowledge of how to put the fire out the easiest and smartest way. There are a whole lot more fireman out there that does it the same way but don’t blog. When we get hit in the mouth then we will back up and still put the fire out in a logical way. Call us wackers or whatever but we know our job and perform it well.
911 - 03/24/11 - 22:37

@Badger..that’s probably one of the most silliest phrases (trying to keep this discussion non-toxic) that only pertains to members that can’t adapt when an audible is called on the fire-ground, and unfortunately there are some out there that once you change the plan or throw a kink at short notice their brain shorts out. You formulate a plan (in our case in the form of procedures/guidelines) to handle the majority of fires with the ability to adapt, if an audible is called, at the drop of a hat.

You accomplish this by training, then putting your training to use when the bell hits. When one line goes in, another needs to go in behind it to back it up, especially with the amount of fire showing. Pretty simple concept actually….

Not sure if the “following decisions” dig was meant for me, but, I’ve been in the hot-seat plenty of times tasked with formulating a plan, applying tactics, then reviewing if the tactics worked. I think I did pretty good, but I ALWAYS made it a point to learn after every fire.

If it wasn’t meant for me, then I completely understand if you’re saying you had no choice due to being given an order. If you’re given an order, ya’ gotta’ do whatcha’ gotta’ do, UNLESS it would have an immediate severe impact on your or someone else safety.

P.S. @911, it’s easy to jump on me b/c I put my name, hahahaha. Thanks for the kind words.

Good discussion Brothers….
Silver - 03/24/11 - 22:45

Being a member of the dept that is doing all the critisisum,,,,,it is wrong. The folks who attacked the fire did what they thought was right. All you other A holes that werent there….let it go…you werent there so you dont know…and besides that, if you works for Raleigh,,,,, Eastern Wake, New Hope, and several others back you up all the time anyway because Raleigh can’t run a call w/o the help of a county dept. Blow your nose first, then start pointing fingers….you do not know what you would do if you were first in to the same call…and for Legros,,,if it wasnt Raleigh that was putting down the Wake County Depts,,you wouldnt let this go on…..but, I promise you…if not here after all this, it will
sametheman - 03/25/11 - 14:58

Sametheman – Along the lines of training, try some basic grammer course prior to posting!
Just Trying to Read This - 03/25/11 - 16:46

Thanks for your note Same (Sam?). I will keep an eye on myself for evidence of bias, with regard to editorial handling of conversations.

It’s worth noting that I rely more on readers to steer these conversations in desired directions. I trust you guys (and gals) to throw flags on the field as needed, as well as drop personal notes if things are looking particularly out of hand.

But to be fair, not everyone is comfortable (or seasoned in) discussing fireground tactics (theirs or others) in this forum. One man’s question is another man’s accusation.

I welcome meta-discussions at all times. Maybe there are some topics that just can’t be successfully discussed on this blog, and that list needs to be flexible. (Just as there are topics left off the blog, notably scandal-based news. That’s never seemed like a value-add to me.)

The Facebook model might be best, were such features available here. If everyone were named by name, the tone would be considerably different. Or maybe people might take things a bit less personally, don’t know.

But lots might also go unsaid, as well. Venting, if you’ll permit a pun on a truckie’s favored task, can be useful.

That’s the double-edged sword of this blog, of the ‘net, and of social media.
Legeros - 03/25/11 - 16:51

Sam, I have no doubt that the City of Raleigh is perfectly capable of running calls within the city limits with out any help from the County. I believe closest unit exists for the benefit of the citizens, not because they can’t handle it without us. We all work together to provide a service.

You don’t have to agree with the above posts, but in the end most are designed for us to learn from.
Proud County Wacker - 03/25/11 - 18:12

@sametheman, I’ve been blowing my nose all day!!! This frickin’ pollen is killing me!!

So much for non-toxic; just more evidence of making it a requirement to register to post here. Go ahead and put me down as A-hole #1 per “sametheman”.

This isn’t an instance where City guys are bashing County guys, you turned it into that. Part of this blog actually is to make us better firemen, not put people down. We learn from incidents no matter where they occur. If you feel like you don’t need to learn anymore, find another line of work. Good points were made here, don’t you think they have some validity? If I was posting on here to bash from behind a computer, I wouldn’t use my name. And no, it isn’t wrong to discuss tactics here, so get over it.

As far as the City backing up the County and vice-versa; why even go there? This debate could get REEEEAAALLL ugly; I’ll just say that “proudcountywacker” covered it pretty well.

You’ve gotta be of the mindset that “the fire went out, and we all went home”, so nothing else needs to be discussed. Wrong mindset to have my friend…
Silver - 03/25/11 - 22:34

Y’all knew I would chime in at some point…

[ Section of comment removed at request of posting user. ]

The only reason Eastern Wake or anyone else is responding with any municipality is because it was once insurance district of “said” department, or because a computer 2 stories below determines you are closest by road mileage and speed limit. Ultimately the citizens of this county want someone there fast when they’re world goes to hell, and from our point of view you better be prepared to respond, especially if you respond with a municipality. In short, you better know what you’re doing when you come into the city limits. There is a higher expectation of service, and with Google, YouTube, firenews.net, firefighterclosecalls.com, firehouse.com, Statter911, legeros, and firerescue1; the public knows and sees what the basic levels of service are.

As for LODDÖit could happen any time anywhere. The biggest thing we need to be concerned about is training, CORPORATE CULTURE: what is youíre safety attitude and do your leaders believe in CRM and open lines of communication, and are we moving forward or just orbiting our own little world? Are you the one who sits back and bitches about the way things should be or are you an active agent of change?

Donít get me wrong, those of you that call yourselves “whackers” have a place and are appreciated when you do what you do…but if you ever feel like “Iím just doing what Iím told but i have no idea what Iím doing” ASK someone! On the battle ground we are all brothers and at some point we can learn from each other and our mistakes. Like Silver, I was once a whacker, and Iím not hiding and you know where to find me or how to contact me. Whoever you are and whatever you do be safe and make sure you act within your scope of training and with good intention.
J.Boggs (Email) - 03/25/11 - 22:37

Look the bottom line is this,you can read training and pray,yet things can and go wrong.If our fellow brothers at Eastern Wake tactics and strategy,is not to your standard so be it.There is more than one road to Rome.They put the fire out and everyone went home safe.For Silver and his group of elite firefighters,it is obvious that you hold no position of a decision making,if you did then you would not pass judgement so quickly.Why you aren’t at the NFA teaching is beyone me.Your name should be rolling of the lips of every Chief there.
Badger - 03/26/11 - 13:34

@badger Just another tough guy cowarding behind a keyboard. Great attitude, the fire eventually went out and everyone went home safe. With that attitude, let’s pull up and fight everything from the outside because it will eventually go out, and we will all go home. What a stupid/ignorant way to look at an incident where you may be able to improve yourself. Since I’m so quick to judge, please enlighten “me and my elite group” as to why it is better to have one line inside and one line outside of a well advancing fire, versus two lines in, working towards one common goal!!!!!!!!!

Hey loser, GPM’s and PROPERLY PLACED streams put fire out (even this “elite firefighter” knows that). Step out from behind the screen if you want to be a tough guy. I have nothing to prove to you; those that have worked with me and those I’ve lead IN can vouch for me. Give me time on the NFA, I’ll get there one day while you’re still yard-breathing.

This thread is so toxic, if it had a placard there would be 4’s across the board.
Silver - 03/26/11 - 14:01

I LOVE when all these “internet tough guys” get on here and try to call people out about stuff, but are too chickens&!# to sign their name. Hey Silver, can I join that super “elite firefighter” group? I think you may still have my application on file!!! LOL

@Badger, “Sametheman”, and others that want to cry about being “picked on” about this incident….RELAX!!!! Like Silver and some others said, it is a way to better ourselves but looking at the decisions others made and their results on incidents. I have yet to go to a fire and not have someone critique what I did and why, the difference is I don’t get all bent out of shape about it. Like others have said here, they’re are some good firemen and officers

@EWFD but they can only do what their administration lets them, so they have to deal with being handcuffed all of time. I say “thumbs up” to them because there is NO WAY IN HELL I could operate in that type of environment. By the way Badger, I DO hold a position of decision making and I will say LOOKING at the series of pictures, I would have done things a lot different, but I WASN’T THERE (because I know you are going to say that) so I do not know exactly what they saw when they got there. I have worked with Silver and believe me, I will gladly work along side him any day of the week without hesitation, same with J Boggs. I think it may be time for some of you to grow some thicker skin, if not, you’re in for LONG ride.
Wayne - 03/26/11 - 17:43

@Wayne; join it? Hell, you’re the Vice President!!
Silver - 03/26/11 - 19:26

Hey Wayne didn’t you and Silver make some movies together. Wayne’s World and Dumb-n-Dumber
Badger - 03/27/11 - 14:01

Thanks for playing, Badger. Guess we’ll give this topic a time-out for the time being.
Legeros - 03/27/11 - 16:04